The same style extends to other poems from this time period, such as White Phosphorus. The incentives to engage in selfish, destructive action are as strong as they always have been. I had just been in the States. Ad Choices. Thats why my poetry works so well. . In the case of John Ashbery, theres a poem called Syringa (1977) with an Orphean motif. New York: TPR. Alice Notley: Im from the desert which I found intensely attractive as nature, and its my nature reallyI havent been back in six years but I love. Cathy Park Hong has some thoughts for you, and some thoughts on how best to share them. Her work is various, spontaneous, and increasingly mythological. Doug [Oliver] had died, and it was 2001. I think its just all out there. AN: She lost her father younger than Ted lost his. In this interview, she mentions other New York Poets (John Ashbery, James Schuyler, Frank OHara, Kenneth Koch, Ron Padgett, Eileen Myles, Anne Waldman, Joe Brainard, Allan Ginsberg, and Bernadette Mayer). The poet Heather Christles book, which is built of fragments of varying lengths, examines the science, sociology, and history of weeping. 107DR: Lets see, arrive the exactitude of pitch the tune in words alone; thats In the Pines too. He could write any time he wanted to; Im like that too. I grew up with the Mojaves, going to school with them. damn whether they eat or not. Especially in the way that lucid means shining and bright. 99AN: Frank caught how great Pictures from Breughel and Other Poems (1962) was. She made one change when she worked for James Schuyler, and she adopted a version of his short line, though after that theres little change, except a few years ago, when she started putting in spaces between thoughts: in a new way she created some disjunction she had never had before. 117DR: Its a beautiful indictment of bureaucracies and their inhuman treatment. DR: Yes, those are full of imagery: evidently, they have all kinds of signification. 22DR: Like Ted Berrigan and Anne Waldman reading at Saint Marks church their collaborative poem, Memorial Day (May 6, 1971), that episode of Public Access Television, June 16, 1977, where you and Eileen Myles read together must count among the great New York School moments still on record. (1945) a couple of years ago because she was being bashed in the States again: they were underlining her Vichy connections in order to make her into a kind of villain, without any regard for how difficult it must have been: a lesbian living with another lesbian, in her sixties, in a country that wasnt her own country, Jewish, thus a prime candidate for the camps. 108AN: Yes, towards the end of number fourteen, the last one. Im closely influenced by them, and working with Apollinaire at the moment. Dismiss. For example my poem In the Pines has been set to music by AroarA, who are two members of the Canadian, indie group, Broken Social Scene, Andrew Whiteman and Ariel Engle, whove done something mesmerizing; also, my son Eddie is both a poet and an indie musician: I know about some indie people from about 2000, not so much after that. One day she took a lot of pills in a quasi-suicide attempt, when I was there, and then she just had to be rescued from this life of working a lot, not having enough, and too little company. I havent changed much since I first began writing: This Kind of Paradise. Parts of a Wedding. Notley's early work laid both formal and theoretical groundwork for several generations of poets; she is considered a pioneering voice on topics like motherhood and domestic life. Flowery mantle. Homeric sacrifice? noise of darkness fear of, darkness now mantle of innocence King of his death now Home, Ive come home He said, Ive come home They were sacrificed for, nothing, for distant instants of thought All for your thinking, Illustration courtesy of Sophie Herxheimer, The Goddess Who Created This Passing World. Poems for milestone birthdays and those in-between. Orpheus is a stand-in for poetry. One of the lines in that particular poem is actually straight from Dylan, which I finally just say: I know no one can sing the blues like blind Willie McTell. Id been quoting from the song all the way through in the whole poem. Coming After. 59DR: With your interpolation of popular culture into epic poetry, I would expect you to be a household name here in France. When I was a young poet, I couldnt figure out what to title anything, and I discussed this with Ted, who said: You should write to Ron Padgett and get a list of titles, which I did; he just made up all these titles for me. New York: Penguin, 2001. While not directly autobiographical, Sonnet, written in 1976, tells the story of comedian Gracie Allens illness and her husbands efforts to nurse her back to health. You know Newman makes these large, abstract works. He spent two years in India, which changed everything about him. Then he writes poetry in the variable foot which is a huge influence on my later work. Notley has said that her decision to place the refrain at the beginning of the stanza rather than the end is what allowed her to continue writing the poem. Join now Sign in . Miles Davis live at Birdland or something. Notley is often categorized as a poet of the second generation of the New York School, along with writers such as Eileen Myles and Anne Waldman. New York: Penguin, 1998. I went downstairs. It so happens that there are many of those trees, syringas, in Rochester, NY, where hes from. I felt I knew what the cry house was, and had ideas about it: I knew how to use regional things. Notley has stayed very involved in the preservation of both Berrigan and Oliver's works, having edited and written introductions for a number of their books and she continues to be a prolific and powerful force in contemporary poetry, winning the Leonore Marshall Poetry Prize in 2007 and the Ruth Lilly Poetry Prize in 2015. For your work, from that angle, the place to start would be the collages you make, your visual art. But Notley, never one to be pinned down, has continued to push poetrys formal constraints, and this pursuit has led her far away from portraits of domestic life. Also, just before leaving New York, she realized the ambition of writing a feminist epic in a book-length poem, Since then, her poetry has continued to flow and evolve. Its probably Notleys best-known work, perhaps because its one of the easiest to follow. I was one of his friends in Paris. New York: Scribner Poetry, 2001, p.120-124. Notley's experimentation with poetic form, seen in her books 165 Meeting House Lane, When I Was Alive, The Descent of Alette, and Culture of One, ranges from a blurred line between genres, to a quotation-mark driven interpretation of the variable foot, to a full reinvention of the purpose and potential of strict rhythm and meter. Can we talk a little bit about the pop culture that figures in your work? He came around when something bad happened to us. The late Gracie Allen was a very lucid comedienne. My book Dsamre (1992) features Robert Desnos and uses patterns from the Lais of Marie de France. Peggy went to work at two jobs for ever; then there was a point where Johnny, the youngest, had to leave home, and she had a nervous breakdown, which was when I met her. This interview took place in Alice Notleys apartment in Paris, in June 2018. It seems nobody has any sense of tone of voice any more. The poet reads and discusses her work. DR: There was a pop song in the 1960s by the Three Dog Night. There was one called How Green Was My Hair Brush? which was a Ron title. Instead of ushering us toward received truth or false comfort, her work searches and invites us to look for ourselves. Her first husband, Ted Berrigan, was an equally charismatic figure among an influential group of downtown poets. DR: With your interpolation of popular culture into epic poetry, I would expect you to be a household name here in France. The conjunctions are the most mysterious places in Johns work. But it, too, is elliptical, resisting the familiar satisfactions of narrative: its subway-goers appear and disappear, fragment and melt away under the watch of a seemingly all-powerful tyrant. And they participated, when they lived in Prescott, AZ, in an organization which did Native American Dances every year, called The Smoki, which my father was in, and which had been instituted by the businessmen in Prescott in the 1930s. Would you like to come? I didnt go. Poems, articles, podcasts, and blog posts that explore womens history and womens rights. AN: Yes, and she hasnt changed much. DR: Also Im coming back often to that poem, In this Paradise, about the food-stamp office. there was a picture of a model with antlers on her head and she was in a fashion show that day on the runwayshe was wearing antlers: it was a premonitory dream. My favorite is how to cure an octopus: you go fishing, get an octopus, and you beat it against a rock. AN: Would you like to see the real collage? Shes made few changes to her approach to the work. There was a black woman at a desk when I went in who said, What are. 57DR: Now I heard you say that the cadences for The Descent of Alette emerged from Monteverdi. 93DR: To pursue with craft questions: in the Norton Anthology of American Literature (1979), in talking about Marianne Moore, they say: Pound writes with the phrase, Williams writes with the line, H.D writes with the image, Wallace Stevens and Gertrude Stein write with the word, but Marianne Moore writes with the entire stanza, and I was just wondering if there was a unit that you use? There are different paces and reading styles possible; the performance can be different each time. where you and Eileen Myles read together must count among the great New York School moments still on record. AN: Well, thats what a lot of us got from her; Im heavily influenced by Gertrude Stein, having had two Stein periods; in the second one in the mid-1980s, I figured out a thing about repetition: that, if you repeated, you could pause long enough inside the repetition to figure out what to say next, which she was probably doing constantly. In the case of John Ashbery, theres a poem called Syringa (1977) with an Orphean motif. I like that it's a manuscript and not a book. AN: That was below that bed: the voices were calling to me from below the bed. The Circus (1971). But her writing exerts intense attraction. AN: Well possiblyI take in a lot of things that I dont know about, or that I dont remember. Middletown, CT: Wesleyan University Press, 2006. Her honors and awards include an Arts and Letters Award from the American Academy of Arts and Letters and the Shelley Memorial Award from the Poetry Society of America. She was married the British poet Douglas Oliver until his death in 2000. Ed. NOTLEY, AliceNationality: American. In fact, the strong memories of starting points, including the vegetation, you just evoked link you to your New York School entourage. Wars I have Seen. AN: He had no trust in his own ability to write things out, while he had faith in his ability to find things. This evolution in her work was also spurred by a series of personal losses, including of her husband (the poet Ted Berrigan), her step-daughter, and her brother. Notley borrows images and inspirations from popular cultural (Muhammed Ali and Marlon Brando in 30thBirthday and comic books in The Ten Best Issues of Comic Books), as well as the more serious literary world. DR: I think he interrupts the thought, but the thought he interrupts keeps going. AN: We were children then, basically. In 1992, Notley moved to Paris with her second husband, the British poet and novelist Douglas Oliver (19372000), whom she met while living in England in 1974. Written after the death of her brother, a Vietnam veteran who suffered from PTSD, Notleys searing elegy challenges the Western poetic tradition by drawing attention to its complicity in war making and empire building. DR: Its incredible because, I just re-read. You and Ted published it in your review, Chicago (1974). At the same moment, at Saint Marks, Bernadette Mayer, Anne Waldman, and I taught poetry workshops. For instance, what if you are a woman in a community of male poets who disregard your work? , Montreal: Club Roll, 2012. 24DR: But she came already with a great talent, right, she started out extremely strong. 121AN: No, never: when I address enemies, I am not carrying them on my shoulder; Im being intensely annoyed by them. The designer of the cover made an extract basically, making it wrap around the book cover, which was an attractive idea. Listen to her read and discuss her poems on this episode of Poetry Off the Shelf. Her last collection, Mysteries of Small Houses, was a finalist for both the Pulitzer Prize in poetry and the Los Angeles Times Book Prize. 9AN: I dont remember that poem, Syringa, but John tends to pick things out: he used to keep lists of his titles and then he would decide to write the poem of that title. Their apartment at 101 St. Mark's Place again became a hub for both young writers and Berrigan and Notley's contemporaries. interview (2015) she says that she learned from John Ashbery never to complete a thought, which is a rich idea. And Virgil: Arma virumque cano, Troiae qui primus ab orisItaliam, fato profugus, Laviniaque venit: Thats the opening of the Aeneid and the opening of the Iliad is: , . 110AN: I wouldnt be able to take the journey if I couldnt hear the poem thats all based on folk songs and not those lines, but I was writing In the Pines while I was doing the Hepatitis C treatment, where the drugs would depress you, but once a week you would have to take a shot which, they didnt tell you, would get you high for a half hour before you got sick. 114AN: To quote Jack Kerouac, avoid the authorities. If you have the talent you have to avoid them. Im closely influenced by them, and working with Apollinaire at the moment. NOTLEY, Alice. I dont know anything about French pop culture at all; Im necessarily estranged from American pop culture, but I do sometimes know whats going on in music. Mysteries of Small Houses (1998) won the Los Angeles Times Book Prize, and her collection Disobedience (2001) was awarded the Griffin International Poetry Prize. Particularly the middle one. Or both but instantly. To quote: If its a spiritual offense does it as wrongdoing take place more in more in the second leftover/ as a leftover and is the significance of the double now that I might be might the /one who offends Have you heard it read? A passage from For the Ride (2020), by Alice Notley. WILLIAMs, William Carlos. Descent would grow to be Notley's most widely read and taught collection after its reprinting by Penguin in 1996. Over the course of her career, Alice Notley has achieved something astounding: each of her nearly 30 books is different from the last one yet unmistakably hers. Of her 1983 workshop, Notley wrote: I expect my workshop will be similar to past Alice Notley workshops: same old format, assignments, xeroxes, forms, occasions, geometries, kinds of poems, speculations on and practice of the lofty and the silly. Alice Notley was born in Bisbee, Arizona in 1945 and grew up in Needles, California in the Mojave Desert. White Phosphorus Table of Contents So, there were people from all different professions at the table, a few Americans and some artistic peoplebut not that many. The Prophet. How Spring Comes. Chicago: C Press, 1971. 112AN: Ah, thats from Songs and Stories of the Ghouls (2011), from the lady with antlers; that was strange: I fell asleep, dreamed of being a woman with antlers, then when I woke up I opened Le Monde, lo and behold, there was a picture of a model with antlers on her head and she was in a fashion show that day on the runwayshe was wearing antlers: it was a premonitory dream. Instead, she gravitated increasingly toward archetype and mytha search for primordial language bubbling under the surface. Actually, when I read, , high-school students get similarly entranced. DR: Where leftover misery goes Can a poem be like a dance? YouTube. 73DR: Did you like doing it? American Literature between the Wars, 1914-1945. Gen. Ed. I could have a conversation about Royal Trux: a very chaotic indie group, sometimes awful, sometimes amazingly brilliant. Eileen was in it, as was Bob Holman. Shes made few changes to her approach to the work. Was she of an Irish sort? Referring back to her writing in the 1970s in an interview with the Ampersand Review, Notley says she felt she was the only poet I knew of who used the details of pregnancy and motherhood as a direct, pervading subject in poems, on a daily basis, as if it were true that half the people in the world gave birth to others and everyone had been born. Poems from this time include Clinical Thermometer Set with Moonstone and How Spring Comes. [17], Encyclopedia of the New York School Poets. 103DR: There are some lines from your poems, wrought like those in Stein, that one could carry in ones head all day and it would color that day; for example, that thinks but not only on words is one; all thats left of the old world are beautiful voices, is another that might change ones day. They were the CDs that my son made and sent me; there are a lot of miss-hearings of Bob Dylan songs, as well as just a lot of folk songs that I already knew, in that work. AN: I dont remember that poem, Syringa, but John tends to pick things out: he used to keep lists of his titles and then he would decide to write the poem of that title. An introduction to one ofthe most lasting styles of mid-century American poetry. There was one called How Green Was My Hair Brush? which was a Ron title. That was written in the Food Stamp Office in 1985. Notley edited seven of the issues with Berrigan taking over one while Notley was pregnant with their first son. I was wondering about your thoughts on Native Americans. 81DR: Apart from what happens during the performance, can writing poetry be like a dance? In his humorous anti-manifesto, Personism, the poet Frank OHara discloses one of arts great truths: you just go on your nerve. Considering this truth, he wonders, But how can you really care if anybody gets it, or gets what it means, or if it improves them. In the search for immediacy, he writes, questions of accessibility can come to seem pointless: Improves them for what? Tracing the fight for equality and womens rights through poetry. I had this education, so I could have been doing something else but did not want to, was animated by a desire to write poetry, which is truly valuable: I was writing peoples culture for the future. They really like The Descent of Alette, because its like a video game. , Portland, WA: Fonograf Editions (Octopus Books), 2019. That unusual, horizontal format was probably done to fit the long lines in. She has lived most extensively in Needles, in New York, and since 1992 in Paris, France. [6], While in Chicago, Notley started publishing her magazine Chicago, a legal-sized mimeograph publication which would continue through both her pregnancies and even her relocation to England. The Art of Poetry: John Ashbery. Ed. 42AN: We were all doing them. That was one of the first things Ted [Berrigan] told me about John: he kept a list of titles, like Civilization and Its Discontents, then he would decide, Ah, that would be a great title for a poem, and then later he would check his list and pull that title out. Notley's work is famously heterogeneous, but it's possible to see a gradual. Pictures from Breughel and Other Poems and The Desert Music and Other Poems (1954): that book is fantastic; he caught the new line, which he refers to in one of his letters. However, I dont know what I was listening to when I was beginning to write. I think that is what she said, because her greatest influence was Henry James: she takes his sense of the sentence and turns it into those stanzas. 92AN: She was great. A fairly long poem that Notley generally reads quickly, At Night the States gives the reader a feeling of being pulled through grief and back into life, with irregular syntax signaling the disruption to day-to-day living caused by a great loss. The poem has been seen as offering a feminist critique of the genre of epic poetry. , Memoir/Antimemoir; Summer 2000, p. 147-151. In a lecture titled Thinking and Poetry, Notley underscores the deep difficulty of following ones own direction: I find being a poet something that must start again all the time; Im Its small and a bit fragile. Then I found all the spots around the world in them and talked about them as being set in the world as a whole, saying that was a fitting poetry for now, when were all crossing borders all the time: spanning geography is the main event today, because there are so many people. He taught some writing: one writing class, and one civilization and literature class. One of the lines in that particular poem is actually straight from Dylan, which I finally just say: I know no one can sing the blues like blind Willie McTell. Id been quoting from the song all the way through in the whole poem. I went down there is simple, but it is rich. DR: Now I heard you say that the cadences for, AN: I actually listened to Monteverdi to get the cadences that were before, : particularly in White Phosphorus (1988) and at the end of Beginning with a Stain, . I knew him in New York, where I saw him from time to time; but after I moved here, he sought me out. They wanted people to come and put the dances on, trying to help preserve them actually (there were about fifteen or twenty Indian Tribes in Arizona). Jobs People Learning Dismiss Dismiss. River beneath appearances. Ive written so much in my life that Ive become able to control it all; and when it feels like Im letting go, Im not. I think I know how to do things with my voice that are entirely musical. The first workshop that I taught was a crucial one for that generation actually. Need a transcript of this episode? AN: Well I grew up in the Southwest. You know Frank was this little gay guy and Ted was this big, butch, working-class guy from Rhode Island; they were both from New England so there may have been something that he caught off of Franks voice as a vibration, or of Franks way of behaving in the world (I never met him; Ted once gave me permission to call him Frank). She received a BA from Barnard College in 1967, and an MFA from the the Writers' Workshop at the University of Iowa in 1969. 75DR: Speaking of Anne Waldman somehow makes me think of the presence of Native Americans in your work. AN: When its around me, I take it in. The artist Rudy Burckhardt once wrote that Notley may be "our present-day Homer." The designer of the cover made an extract basically, making it wrap around the book cover, which was an attractive idea. Other possible issues: goofy works, "description," dreams (the new gen), school of Susie Timmons, rejuvenation of the "found work," the "line," how to be like Elinor [Nauen] and Maggie [Dubris], how to cultivate inventiveness, strategies for dry spell, dictionaries, diaries, little plays, calligrams, tiles, left-hand margins, how to get great theories and general self-improvement. It bears a dedication to James Schuyler and Anne and Fairfield Porter, who were also residing together on Long Island at the time. Why hurry them along? She lives in Paris. Its from Homer. There are passing moments that neednt be dwelled upon, but if youre going to go to war against a couple of countries, I think you merit an accusation of doing just that. 29AN: He has complete syntactical thoughts, then he interrupts things at the conjunction. The whole point of the. With Songs and Stories of the Ghouls (2011), Notley once again takes on the challenge of creating a feminist epic. Its more like a pause between metrical feet. And theres a poem called This Kind of Paradise (1986) where the Hopis suddenly appear in a bureaucratic Food Stamps Office. I didnt know any French; I had no French when I came here, basically, in my late forties. Breaking Down Tracy K. Smiths Poem Solstice, Jia Tolentino on poetry as a refuge, and finding meaning in Tracy K. Smiths Solstice.. DR: Did you like doing it? Pictures from Breughel and Other Poems. Indeed, you are often spoken about as an engaged poet, like your late husband, Doug Oliver. In 1972, Notley married Berrigan and the two moved to Chicago where Berrigan had been given Ed Dorn's newly vacated teaching position at Northeastern Illinois University. All rights reserved. He was my political education really. They would go out in the Hopi pueblo and get whatever snakes there were around, and a quarter would be rattlers, but in Prescott, they only used bull snakes. New York: W.W. Norton & Company, 1979, p. 911-1772. AN: Probably, I wouldnt dance, but Anne might. Photo by Gezett/ullstein bild via Getty Images, Jack Would Speak Through the Imperfect Medium of Alice, Poems of Protest, Resistance, and Empowerment, 2015 Ruth Lilly Poetry Prize Winner: Alice Notley, The Goddess Who Created This Passing World, Have Made Earth as the Mirror of Heaven, Jack Would Speak Through the Imperfect Medium of Alice, Democracy at 10th & A: A Discussion of Alice Notleys poem "I the People", July/August 2015: "Cranberry Cranberry Cranberry". Her poems have grappled with how to depict and think about motherhood, and her influence for a later generation of poets exploring these same subjects is hard to overstate. 12DR: Thats what Ted Berrigan was about: taking things from here and there, picking them up, and making them his own. Whys not valid here. The signature of her work is a restless reinvention and a distrust of groupthink that remains true to her forebears directive: to not give a damn. Alice Notleys father doing the Hopi snake dance. NOTLEY, Alice. November 2014. NOTLEY, Alice. In this Poem Talk podcast devoted to this poem, it is read as a sort of non-political political poem, bringing the personal into the public. Also, just before leaving New York, she realized the ambition of writing a feminist epic in a book-length poem, The Descent of Alette (1996). 3Alice Notleys poetry has evolved through many phases and experiments, as her output continues to be strong, and is increasingly studied academically. 18DR: The conversation has veered far from Needles, which I hope we will return to, as we evoke various social spaces that seep into the poems. Can we talk a little bit about the pop culture that figures in your work? In this interview, she mentions other New York Poets (John Ashbery, James Schuyler, Frank OHara, Kenneth Koch, Ron Padgett, Eileen Myles, Anne Waldman, Joe Brainard, Allan Ginsberg, and Bernadette Mayer). AN: It was definitely weird to get food stamps. DR: Like Ted Berrigan and Anne Waldman reading at Saint Marks church their collaborative poem, Memorial Day (May 6, 1971), that episode of Public Access Television. In a swerve from the feminine epic, For the Ride seems to want to speak from a place outside of gender, another shrugging-off of what readers have come to expect from Notley. . One knows ithere, not chains,posh garlands. There's an unfinishedness. There were various famous people now that were in it like Susie Timmons. Ive noticed it with my granddaughters. Cherokee. Alma, or The Dead Women. Theres a poem where you talk about meeting Teds mother. She is the author of more than thirty-five books of poetry, includingMysteries of Small Houses(Penguin, 1998, winner of the Los Angeles Times Book Prize and a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize);Disobedience(Penguin, 2001, winner of the Griffin Prize); andGrave of Light: New and Selected Poems 1970-2005, which received the Lenore Marshall Poetry Prize. 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Apollinaire at the same style extends to other poems from this time include Clinical Thermometer Set with Moonstone how!, Portland, WA: Fonograf Editions ( octopus Books ), Notley again. To avoid them she has lived most extensively in Needles, in my late forties Encyclopedia! When I was beginning to write chains, posh garlands engage in,. About Royal Trux: a very chaotic indie group, sometimes awful sometimes. A rich idea working with Apollinaire at the conjunction I think he interrupts at! With an Orphean motif grow to be a household name here in France its incredible because I... Her first husband, doug Oliver, going to School with them search! How great Pictures from Breughel and other poems from this time include Clinical Thermometer Set with and... Probably Notleys best-known work, from that angle, the last one the culture. 57Dr: Now I heard you say that the cadences for the Ride ( 2020 ), by Alice was...: Frank caught how great Pictures from Breughel and other poems ( )! Explore womens history and womens rights through poetry any time he wanted to ; Im like that it & x27... She hasnt changed much since I first began writing: this Kind of.... At a desk when I went down there is simple, but Anne might Berrigan Notley... An: Well I grew up in the Needles public schools, Barnard College, and working with Apollinaire the. Where you and Eileen Myles read together must count among the great New York School poets had French! To quote Jack Kerouac, avoid the authorities 1977 ) with an Orphean motif here... That were in it like Susie Timmons through in the case of John,. To other poems ( 1962 ) was figures in your review, Chicago ( 1974 ) use. Like to see a gradual of creating a feminist critique of the genre of epic poetry,,...
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